Meltdown, *updated*
Joy Madsen apparently had a complete melt-down on the Facebook “alt adoption” group’s discussion boards last night.
Some of us have seen this behavior from her time and again over the last three years, particularly in relation to the Adoptee Rights Demonstration/Day for Adoptee Rights though usually it’s been in spaces such as the AAAFC/”Adult” adoptees board, behind logins.
What happened on the FB alt adoption board last night is a rare publicly available example.
For those of you who might have been trying to understand some of the many reasons some of us refuse to work with people like Joy and those who tag along with her seeing nothing wrong with what she does, this ‘discussion’ may provide some illumination.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled blogging and ‘National Adoption Month’.
*UPDATE*
Not surprisingly, a number of Joy’s posts from last night have gone ‘missing.’
Fortunately, it’s never so easy to make information disappear as some might wish.
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November 21st, 2009 at 6:30 pm
“Not surprisingly, a number of Joy’s posts from last night have gone ‘missing.’”
Erm. Just like yours did from AAFC
Hypocrite.
November 21st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
Grow up Kippa.
I removed my posts from the AAAFC board in the face of direct attacks on Marley, BN, and myself. This was during the period when Joy and other AAAFC mods were locking and eventually deleting posts about us there. I removed them before Joy had a chance to delete my work without my consent.
I still have all of it, and may yet put it up here if time allows.
November 21st, 2009 at 6:38 pm
Also, AAAFC is not a public forum, it was a private board behind a login.
Alt A on FB, on the other hand is freely available to anyone with a FB login.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Go stick it, Sabina,
“I removed my posts from the AAAFC board in the face of direct attacks on Marley, BN, and myself”
So what? There was no reason to remove them – other than that you were having a hissy-fit.
You removed ALL of them, even those you posted prior to the debacle. Including the post which announced your resignation, which went up *prior* to Marley’s announcement.
“Alt A on FB, on the other hand is freely available to anyone with a FB login.”
Not everybody has an FB login. Nor wants one. But you have made it available to anyone who comes to Marley’s blog.
Alinsky’s rule number 5.
“I still have all of it,”
I’m sure you do.
” and may yet put it up here if time allows.”
I know you’re a busy little bee.
But I’m equally sure you’ll find the time.
November 21st, 2009 at 8:58 pm
I see Joy’s not the only one who forgot to take her daily dose of nice.
Shall we go back and look at the full context of the time period?
http://www.babylovechild.org/2008/07/25/ard-related-my-adult-adoptees-posts-are-no-longer-available/
As I said, there were threads I had written on about BN and my resignation from the ARD.
When the AAAFC moderators locked them down and then eventually deleted them I would have lost access to my own writings had I not saved personal copies for myself.
In the mean time, considering the amount of bullshit being heaped on people such as myself over there (for what, having posted a two sentence resignation from the ARD?) I had no guarentee the actual content of my posts would not be changed by moderators.
In order to preserve my own writings I removed them before they could be further fucked with.
The main difference between AAAFC and the new alt Adoption on FB is that Alt A is an unmoderated free for all, you say something, you stand by it, no mod is coming in to fuck with what you wrote. AAAFC on the other hand, is very clearly the personal sandbox of people who had no qualms about making it clear they hated me and by that point, had a history of fucking with what some of us had written there.
That’s because when I was on the ARD committee I was there as an individual, not as a Bastard Nation representative in any way shape or form, I made that clear to Ron, and Kali.
My resignation, and that of my partner Mike, were personal resignations. Nothing more.
BN had already withdrawn by that point, though their organizational statement came out later, after Marley returned home from her trip.
There was no reason to ever associate my resignation statement with any kind of BN organization decision, other than the delusional assumptions made a few people, many of whom were nowhere near the actual organizing list for the ARD.
I said-
“Alt A on FB, on the other hand is freely available to anyone with a FB login.”
Kippa said-
So what, the point is it is available to any member of the public who wishes to, there is no expectation of privacy on a FB groups discussion page.
I have no idea what you’re talking about here. The only place I wrote about the fact that Joy had her little fit was here on MY blog. How on earth are you dragging The Daily Bastardette into it?
I said I still had the AAAFC posts,
” and may yet put it up here if time allows.”
Kippa said-
Well, it would certainly be easier if I could simply put the entire threads up, but as I’d need to write summarizing intervening material between my posts so as to summarize what others on the thread had said such that my original written responses to their comments would make any sense (now decoupled from their writings) that’s pretty much a major project.
On the other hand, if the people in question had no qualms about their original posts going up in totality, sure, I could resurrect that material petty quickly.
Guess that’s the thing about having a conscience, it makes so much more work for oneself.
As I said though, the only reason I would need to do those summaries would be because these were posts on a private message board. (though I’d have to double check, some may have been in the publicly available areas.)
As for something like a FB discussion board set of posts? No qualms there what-so-ever.
November 21st, 2009 at 10:15 pm
“I see Joy’s not the only one who forgot to take her daily dose of nice.”
Coming from you, that’s cute. I didn’t know you were a creature of such delicate sensibility.
“I had no guarentee the actual content of my posts would not be changed by moderators.”
They do say that projection can cause paranoia by attributing one’s own own malice to others.
“In order to preserve my own writings I removed them before they could be further fucked with.”
*Further* fucked with? Your posts were altered?
That’s a very serious accusation.
I was a close observer on AAAFC during that period, and never saw any such thing.
I witnessed the fall-out, and all things considered, I don’t think BN should have been at all surprised at the intensity of the reactions to their withdrawal from ARD. Regardless of the reasons for it, it was shocking, especially to the rank and file (which was pretty much everyone).
“I have no idea what you’re talking about here. The only place I wrote about the fact that Joy had her little fit was here on MY blog. How on earth are you dragging The Daily Bastardette into it?”
Don’t be disingenuous, Sabina. It ill becomes you. You know perfectly that Marley’s blog is linked directly to yours.
“The main difference between AAAFC and the new alt Adoption on FB is that Alt A is an unmoderated free for all, you say something, you stand by it, no mod is coming in to fuck with what you wrote.
Same as old alt.a. Only diff (and it’s a big one) being that anyone could read there, at any time, *without* having the hassle of having to join.
Which many people are reluctant, for whatever reasons of their own, to do. Like I said, not everybody has an FB login. Nor wants one.
“AAAFC on the other hand, is very clearly the personal sandbox of people who had no qualms about making it clear they hated me and by that point, had a history of fucking with what some of us had written there.”
So? If you think what you’re doing is any different, you are sadly deluded. In fact what you are doing is much worse, because you are making your malice blatantly public. As you pointed out yourself, AAAFC is not a public forum.
“Guess that’s the thing about having a conscience, it makes so much more work for oneself.”
As far as having a conscience is concerned, it’s apparent that guessing is as close as you are ever going to get to one.
November 22nd, 2009 at 10:13 pm
Kippa started off with:
I said-
“I see Joy’s not the only one who forgot to take her daily dose of nice.”
Kippa responded-
Kippa, clearly you are unable to understand the distinctions between writing on a public forum and coming to someone’s blog and commenting, attempting to get in through moderation.
Let me remind you of my blog’s comment policy:
“…for starters it means this tiny little corner of the net is not about providing further real estate to industry, or apologists, or adoption marketers, or just plain idiots to take up. There’s pretty much the rest of the net for that. This is my little corner, my space, my little blog living room.
Do me a favour and don’t come in trying to put muddy boots on the family heirloom coffeetable, ok? I tend not to take too kindly to such.”
I’ll let you read down through the rest of it at your leisure.
The point is, if you expect to make it through moderation, try not to be a jackass from your first sentence forward.
BLC-
“I had no guarentee the actual content of my posts would not be changed by moderators.”
Kippa-
Lovely. Please demonstrate a single example of me EVER rewriting or modifying the posts of those who comment etc.
Clearly, even your own ugly words when they make it through moderation are going through unchanged.
Unless and until you are able to provide so much as a scrap of evidence of me re-writing someone else’s writing, words like “paranoia” and “projection” are nothing more than namecalling on your part.
BLC-
“In order to preserve my own writings I removed them before they could be further fucked with.”
Kippa-
I did not say my posts had been re-written in any form, (although such was certainly one of many things the moderators there COULD have done had they chosen to.)
As I’ve said multiple times now, what they did do was lock posts down, (such that the authors of the posts themselves no longer had control over their own postings,) then deleted them without warning or notification to the posts authors. That’s what I meant by “fucked with.”
I was not the only one whose writings disappeared in those purges.
Fortunately, I had the foresight to keep copies for my own, and historical purposes.
Kippa-
All of which AGAIN, was not precipitated by my and my partner’s PERSONAL announcement that we were not longer involved.
We do not speak for BN.
Anyone stupid enough to assume we did clearly knows bupkis about BN and its organizational structure. Mike and I are not on the ExecCom, the Committees, nor are we regional directors, we’re nothing more than lifetime members who have presented at BN conferences and we made it clear to the leadership of the ARD from the start that we were there in an independent capacity, not working on behalf of BN in any way shape or form.
The viciousness directed at us purely for posting two lousy sentences that we were no longer involved was simply an insane overreaction, some of which by people who certainly knew we were not in any capacity speaking on behalf of BN.
At the time, on the AAAFC board one or two people had the clue to ask whether my resignation from the ARD had been predicated by something ‘anything bad going on in my personal life?’
I responded on 5/31/08-
“And as a matter of fact, not that it’s anyone else’s business, but yes my partner’s health is actually one of the MANY factors in our decision that led us to eventually decide to step down.”
Kali and Marley were both aware of at least some of the back story on that, and how it was one of three main factors that led to our decision, along with Kali’s announcement less than two months before the event that the AAAFC hotel had all of FOUR, count ’em 4 hotel rooms booked for the allegedly “mass movement” event, AND the Abrazo fundraising disaster that unfolded within half an hour of Ron’s call for a postponement.
Kali knew damn well that my partner and I were dealing with a health issue at the time, her response? Participate in the vindictive attacks against us merely for daring to say we would no longer be participating.
This out of a so called “Adoptee support board.”
Pathetic.
And here we are years later, still being shat upon because we made a decision not to participate in something that went deeply against our own consciences due to industry entanglement and went against all pragmatic practical realities of throwing any sort of a “mass event” which is, you may forget, what I signed on for when the event asked for my help in the first place. All of which took place in the broader context of what was happening in our personal lives.
I don’t expect to be thanked for the work we put into the ARD, but I didn’t expect to be savaged and trashed for personally withdrawing in light of the surrounding circumstances either.
That’ll teach me to volunteer my time and years of experience in the future. At least with a certain set of people.
BLC-
“I have no idea what you’re talking about here. The only place I wrote about the fact that Joy had her little fit was here on MY blog. How on earth are you dragging The Daily Bastardette into it?”
Kippa-
Oh please. Just because a blog links another blog that hardly means I “have made it available to anyone who comes to Marley’s blog.”
I pointed out Joy’s PUBLIC meltdown on my own blog. Plenty of other blogs link mine, again, so what?
She’s now trying to make history go away by deleting her own posts after the fact, clearly Joy. herself sees a problem with what she posted. Is there any earthly reason to pretend she didn’t do what she did Friday night?
Or would you just prefer we all put our hands over our eyes and fingers in our ears and pretend that this didn’t happen?
She had a complete meltdown, trashing BN, (later calling it a “beard”, or front group for NCFA) calling Marley a liar (And then sending her a friend request!) Saying Mike and I were Shea’s “goons”, etc.
Why anyone would take her seriously after that ugly little outburst is beyond me. People should be aware it happened, and they should know the history of some of Joy’s incivility. Just as they should know the way her AAAFC “adoptee support board” treats those it banishes. (see here, here, and the screen shot here for but a few examples.)
BLC-
“The main difference between AAAFC and the new alt Adoption on FB is that Alt A is an unmoderated free for all, you say something, you stand by it, no mod is coming in to fuck with what you wrote.
Kippa-
Actually that portion of FB, the groups and their discussion forums DO NOT require a login. It’s out in the open.
If you want to have a private FB experience, then don’t post in the publicly available portions.
On old Alt. A wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the day, you had to know how to get to the newsgroups. Not a completely dissimilar situation. You had to get there, but once you were there, it was all out in the open.
BLC-
“AAAFC on the other hand, is very clearly the personal sandbox of people who had no qualms about making it clear they hated me and by that point, had a history of fucking with what some of us had written there.”
Kippa-
My “malice” Hello? Did you bother to read what Joy wrote on that thread before she took the delete button to some of it?
All that I have done is point towards a location that is publicly available, but ‘down in the noise’ where Joy completely lost it and went on a rampage, pounding on anyone and everyone in sight.
It was over in a place some people may not bother thinking to look, not that different than an obscure piece outta let’s say Poughkeepsie, NY. All the information is right there, but it’s not in place some people might think to look.
Parts of it are publicly visible, other parts of it are not.
Having not bothered to check which portion the deleted threads were in yet, I opted towards not putting out people’s posts.
BLC-
“Guess that’s the thing about having a conscience, it makes so much more work for oneself.”
Kippa-
Charming.